I accepted a few years back that the country of my childhood was gone. I don't specifically mean the national pride, but the everyday culture and people. Besides, given all the foreign wars "our" country has caused and how we've been lied to, I've been gradually been re-evaluating what it all really means anyway. However, the loss of the culture and things hitherto taken for granted has been a terrible thing, but it's behind me now. Today, I try to be open to the future. Nothing lasts forever, especially a new world order.
Entirely agreed. I have let go, to a great degree, a lot of the patriotic baggage. It's gone and there's no sense in torturing oneself over it. Cultures come and go and morph unexpectedly. Something is on the other side of all of this; it's just an adventure nobody sodding asked for!
Andrew Thomas: ‘all the foreign wars "our" country has caused’ What, precisely, are the foreign wars Britain exclusively caused where the other party was entirely blameless?
"What did my grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather put their lives on the lines for in the trenches and on D-Day? What was the point? What are we becoming?"
We have , as you also wrote, become a country where 'imbecilities in our national life' are the norm. It's to be expected when the majority of the population has become infantilised. Who would indeed vote for that ...
Meanwhile, we better batten down the hatches and hope that we can survive the coming Labour onslaught.
Bring it on, I say. I'm curious to see how bad it might be. Then again, I assume it will just constitute more of the same gradual, depressing slide into dysfunction.
Indeed - how bad could it be when there's not even room for a cigarette paper between Lab and Con: we've been used to Lab since 1997 - remember the 'Heir to Blair'. It'll be fun to watch taxation climb and climb - wasn't it around 90% in the 1970s?
I am English with extended family in Eire. Many years ago I made a choice - I am not Irish, but English. Since then any opinion voiced to support the UK and specifically England is seen by the elected MPS and associated Public Sector as something beyond the worst possible situation.
We are deliberately made to feel unwanted.
Should this ever be invoked on certain other communities we would be instantly awash with multiple legal actions from an armies of solicitors and barristers. It is a two tier country, with the resident underclass expected to pay for any abuse the elite care to impose. However, this particular road will come to an end, and soon. It is going to be brutal for all.
‘What did my grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather put their lives on the lines for in the trenches and on D-Day? What was the point?’
The point was to live out their lives in a manner of their choosing. As George Macdonald Fraser described towards the end of his memoir of his Far East service, his fellow soldiers wanted ‘a better, fairer Britain, and to some extent they got it. … [T]hey were Labour to a man, but not necessarily socialists as the term is understood now. Their socialism was of a simple kind: they had known the ’thirties, and they didn’t want it again: the dole queue, the street corner, the true poverty of that time. They wanted jobs, and security, and a better future for their children than they had had—and they got that, and were thankful for it. … [A] place where the pre-war values co-existed with decent wages and housing. It was a reasonable, perfectly possible dream, and for a time it existed, more or less.’ (‘Quartered Safe Out Here’. 1993. Harper, 2000. 263–4.)
That successive post-war governments (passively watched by expanding electorates) threw away their hard-won, bloodily-bought legacy does not make their efforts and sacrifices pointless. That post-war governments and electorates squandered the opportunities arising from being victorious and suffering far less material and mortal damage than the defeated powers could not be foreseen by them.
From where does this self-abasement stem? Was it a genius move of Adolf to provoke half the world(*) to go to war against him causing Germany to suffer about 7 million dead, its cities turned into rubble, East Prussia removed from existence, the remainder of Germany partitioned with half going to the communists, and the ‘Danzig Question’ answered by becoming Polish Gdańsk? Jerries and Japs have *far* more cause to ask ‘What was the point?’ (along with Austrians, Hungarians and Bulgarians for the Great War).
(* Torpedo-happy twat sinking everything in sight even managed to cause faraway Brazil to declare war and send an expeditionary force to Italy.)
‘A democracy where nobody can be bothered to vote because they know it will mean nothing’—people mistake ‘democracy’ for liberty, seeing the words as synonymous: they’re not. We were far freer when ‘democracy’ was more limited, when the franchise was far more restricted. One should ask: is democracy an end in itself, or simply one potential means amongst others to obtain liberty and prosperity?
I sincerely hope that their privations and sacrifices were not for nothing - after all, Europe lost many of its finest young men in those wars. Yet, I'm not sure that them not foreseeing what would happen (who can?) alters the fact. The time elapsed since those mighty conflicts of 1914-1945 is miniscule in the grand scheme of things, yet the path taken has so rapidly pushed us down a path of unutterable stupidity. Clearly we have a moral aspect to our answer of 'what was the point?', one that makes the horror of it all a bit more palatable, but I don't think it smooths over the basic fact that millions suffered and died for their countries to be given up within their lifetimes.
As for democracy, who knows. You are right in what you say but when the franchise was more limited we had a different set of standards governing the mores of those who had earned the vote. Who would risk handing sole control to their modern equivalents?
It's a sham either way. You'll always have an elite, regardless as to whether it is dressed up in the alluring lingerie of democracy or not. They'll always be the ones calling the shots.
For much of history, Britain has been waging wars. The plebs manned either the plough at home or the canon. We thought that God was on our side. Today the establishment tells us that Britain welcomes all faiths. The establishment is blind to the stupidity of this statement. Faith ( not football) is the backbone of culture, values and national identity. Introduce more than one faith and the nation fragments. The fragmentation will continue until either one faith becomes dominant or Britain once again goes to war, in which case everything will be thrown up in the air and only God knows what will be left. The British establishment wants war, that much is evident.
You said: Unlike most I feel no burning allegiance to either side in the Israel/Gaza perennial disaster. No longer a world power, such matters should not concern us overly.
Are you serious? You have no allegiance to defending justice, rule of law, democracy, human rights and common human decency all of which Israel betrays? Why on earth did Britain go to war in the First and Second World Wars if not to defend those principles and to fight brutal military occupations?
You are not overly concerned with an issue created by the British where the Palestinians, because of British actions, have suffered the longest holocaust in modern history and the most bestial, sadistic, brutal military colonial occupation. Not overly concerned you say when British weapons and actions fund, support and promote the Israeli genocide against the native people of the land it has stolen. Remember Lord Balfour? Remember the British encouraging Jewish colonists to set up in Palestine, well aware that the Zionists and the Israelis when they invented themselves, had a plan to exterminate or expel every last non-Jew. Well, maybe a few compliant slaves could remain.
Not overly concerned in the most evil military colonial occupation for centuries which your country helped to create? Shame on you.
You see clearly the aggressive Islamisation of Britain and anticipate a backlash yet you view the war in Israel and Gaza as remote and irrelevant to you. I would say they are just two parts of one and the same fight.
Agreed; as Mrs Thatcher once said: ‘Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous, you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides’; and when Parliamentary and Council candidates proclaim their elections are ‘for Gaza’, then to paraphrase the old saw: ‘You may not be interested in Gaza, but Gaza is coming to you regardless’.
The conflict *is* relevant to Britain, at least to the extent of providing moral, diplomatic and logistical support—give them the tools and they’ll finish the job, to paraphrase Winston:
1. We have a specific national interest with the extensive connections between Irish republican and Arab terrorists making a defeat of the latter in our interests to remove allies of the former, so weakening them. Irrespective of October 7 and ensuing conflict, we should be sharing intelligence of such connections and, given similarity of COIN in Ulster(*) and Israel’s troublesome territories, knowledge of tactics and equipment, as well as selling to each other and collaborating on manufacture of relevant kit (scandalous that we invent the remotely-controlled bomb-disposal robot, the ‘Wheelbarrow’, and now use one made by Northrop-Grumman). Obv. we should make war directly on Irish republican terrorists but this is easily done (were any British government to find the balls, missing since 1921) in conjunction with removing their allies.
(* Ongoing (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10866072) but currently sufficiently low level as to not require the military. The Irish have been a bloody (in both senses) nuisance since they started raiding the Romano-British coast even before the Romans left; history shows Irish–mainland conflict is more-or-less generational and little to do with what flag is flying above Dublin or Belfast, and clock is ticking until next stage in the Eternal Irish Conflict begins.)
2. All countries with burgeoning Muslim minorities should desire Hamas’ defeat to demoralise them—as is evident from 9/11 onwards and esp. in October 7’s wake, the more they perceive themselves as winning, the more it encourages them.
3. The Woke-Left are revealing themselves for what they actually are, and are disgusting ordinary people and their antics infuriating them. Ordinary people are finally seeing how corrupt our various institutions have become, and are shocked and angry. There are opportunities in that disgust and anger for at least some fightback against the Woke Left and our corrupted institutions; proclaiming neutrality will only allow those opportunities to be lost.
I accepted a few years back that the country of my childhood was gone. I don't specifically mean the national pride, but the everyday culture and people. Besides, given all the foreign wars "our" country has caused and how we've been lied to, I've been gradually been re-evaluating what it all really means anyway. However, the loss of the culture and things hitherto taken for granted has been a terrible thing, but it's behind me now. Today, I try to be open to the future. Nothing lasts forever, especially a new world order.
Entirely agreed. I have let go, to a great degree, a lot of the patriotic baggage. It's gone and there's no sense in torturing oneself over it. Cultures come and go and morph unexpectedly. Something is on the other side of all of this; it's just an adventure nobody sodding asked for!
>it's just an adventure nobody sodding asked for!
Laughing at this. It's how I see it.
Andrew Thomas: ‘all the foreign wars "our" country has caused’ What, precisely, are the foreign wars Britain exclusively caused where the other party was entirely blameless?
You ask in your final paragraph:
"What did my grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather put their lives on the lines for in the trenches and on D-Day? What was the point? What are we becoming?"
We have , as you also wrote, become a country where 'imbecilities in our national life' are the norm. It's to be expected when the majority of the population has become infantilised. Who would indeed vote for that ...
Meanwhile, we better batten down the hatches and hope that we can survive the coming Labour onslaught.
Bring it on, I say. I'm curious to see how bad it might be. Then again, I assume it will just constitute more of the same gradual, depressing slide into dysfunction.
Indeed - how bad could it be when there's not even room for a cigarette paper between Lab and Con: we've been used to Lab since 1997 - remember the 'Heir to Blair'. It'll be fun to watch taxation climb and climb - wasn't it around 90% in the 1970s?
I am English with extended family in Eire. Many years ago I made a choice - I am not Irish, but English. Since then any opinion voiced to support the UK and specifically England is seen by the elected MPS and associated Public Sector as something beyond the worst possible situation.
We are deliberately made to feel unwanted.
Should this ever be invoked on certain other communities we would be instantly awash with multiple legal actions from an armies of solicitors and barristers. It is a two tier country, with the resident underclass expected to pay for any abuse the elite care to impose. However, this particular road will come to an end, and soon. It is going to be brutal for all.
‘What did my grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather put their lives on the lines for in the trenches and on D-Day? What was the point?’
The point was to live out their lives in a manner of their choosing. As George Macdonald Fraser described towards the end of his memoir of his Far East service, his fellow soldiers wanted ‘a better, fairer Britain, and to some extent they got it. … [T]hey were Labour to a man, but not necessarily socialists as the term is understood now. Their socialism was of a simple kind: they had known the ’thirties, and they didn’t want it again: the dole queue, the street corner, the true poverty of that time. They wanted jobs, and security, and a better future for their children than they had had—and they got that, and were thankful for it. … [A] place where the pre-war values co-existed with decent wages and housing. It was a reasonable, perfectly possible dream, and for a time it existed, more or less.’ (‘Quartered Safe Out Here’. 1993. Harper, 2000. 263–4.)
That successive post-war governments (passively watched by expanding electorates) threw away their hard-won, bloodily-bought legacy does not make their efforts and sacrifices pointless. That post-war governments and electorates squandered the opportunities arising from being victorious and suffering far less material and mortal damage than the defeated powers could not be foreseen by them.
From where does this self-abasement stem? Was it a genius move of Adolf to provoke half the world(*) to go to war against him causing Germany to suffer about 7 million dead, its cities turned into rubble, East Prussia removed from existence, the remainder of Germany partitioned with half going to the communists, and the ‘Danzig Question’ answered by becoming Polish Gdańsk? Jerries and Japs have *far* more cause to ask ‘What was the point?’ (along with Austrians, Hungarians and Bulgarians for the Great War).
(* Torpedo-happy twat sinking everything in sight even managed to cause faraway Brazil to declare war and send an expeditionary force to Italy.)
‘A democracy where nobody can be bothered to vote because they know it will mean nothing’—people mistake ‘democracy’ for liberty, seeing the words as synonymous: they’re not. We were far freer when ‘democracy’ was more limited, when the franchise was far more restricted. One should ask: is democracy an end in itself, or simply one potential means amongst others to obtain liberty and prosperity?
I sincerely hope that their privations and sacrifices were not for nothing - after all, Europe lost many of its finest young men in those wars. Yet, I'm not sure that them not foreseeing what would happen (who can?) alters the fact. The time elapsed since those mighty conflicts of 1914-1945 is miniscule in the grand scheme of things, yet the path taken has so rapidly pushed us down a path of unutterable stupidity. Clearly we have a moral aspect to our answer of 'what was the point?', one that makes the horror of it all a bit more palatable, but I don't think it smooths over the basic fact that millions suffered and died for their countries to be given up within their lifetimes.
As for democracy, who knows. You are right in what you say but when the franchise was more limited we had a different set of standards governing the mores of those who had earned the vote. Who would risk handing sole control to their modern equivalents?
It's a sham either way. You'll always have an elite, regardless as to whether it is dressed up in the alluring lingerie of democracy or not. They'll always be the ones calling the shots.
For much of history, Britain has been waging wars. The plebs manned either the plough at home or the canon. We thought that God was on our side. Today the establishment tells us that Britain welcomes all faiths. The establishment is blind to the stupidity of this statement. Faith ( not football) is the backbone of culture, values and national identity. Introduce more than one faith and the nation fragments. The fragmentation will continue until either one faith becomes dominant or Britain once again goes to war, in which case everything will be thrown up in the air and only God knows what will be left. The British establishment wants war, that much is evident.
You said: Unlike most I feel no burning allegiance to either side in the Israel/Gaza perennial disaster. No longer a world power, such matters should not concern us overly.
Are you serious? You have no allegiance to defending justice, rule of law, democracy, human rights and common human decency all of which Israel betrays? Why on earth did Britain go to war in the First and Second World Wars if not to defend those principles and to fight brutal military occupations?
You are not overly concerned with an issue created by the British where the Palestinians, because of British actions, have suffered the longest holocaust in modern history and the most bestial, sadistic, brutal military colonial occupation. Not overly concerned you say when British weapons and actions fund, support and promote the Israeli genocide against the native people of the land it has stolen. Remember Lord Balfour? Remember the British encouraging Jewish colonists to set up in Palestine, well aware that the Zionists and the Israelis when they invented themselves, had a plan to exterminate or expel every last non-Jew. Well, maybe a few compliant slaves could remain.
Not overly concerned in the most evil military colonial occupation for centuries which your country helped to create? Shame on you.
You see clearly the aggressive Islamisation of Britain and anticipate a backlash yet you view the war in Israel and Gaza as remote and irrelevant to you. I would say they are just two parts of one and the same fight.
Agreed; as Mrs Thatcher once said: ‘Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous, you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides’; and when Parliamentary and Council candidates proclaim their elections are ‘for Gaza’, then to paraphrase the old saw: ‘You may not be interested in Gaza, but Gaza is coming to you regardless’.
The conflict *is* relevant to Britain, at least to the extent of providing moral, diplomatic and logistical support—give them the tools and they’ll finish the job, to paraphrase Winston:
1. We have a specific national interest with the extensive connections between Irish republican and Arab terrorists making a defeat of the latter in our interests to remove allies of the former, so weakening them. Irrespective of October 7 and ensuing conflict, we should be sharing intelligence of such connections and, given similarity of COIN in Ulster(*) and Israel’s troublesome territories, knowledge of tactics and equipment, as well as selling to each other and collaborating on manufacture of relevant kit (scandalous that we invent the remotely-controlled bomb-disposal robot, the ‘Wheelbarrow’, and now use one made by Northrop-Grumman). Obv. we should make war directly on Irish republican terrorists but this is easily done (were any British government to find the balls, missing since 1921) in conjunction with removing their allies.
(* Ongoing (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10866072) but currently sufficiently low level as to not require the military. The Irish have been a bloody (in both senses) nuisance since they started raiding the Romano-British coast even before the Romans left; history shows Irish–mainland conflict is more-or-less generational and little to do with what flag is flying above Dublin or Belfast, and clock is ticking until next stage in the Eternal Irish Conflict begins.)
2. All countries with burgeoning Muslim minorities should desire Hamas’ defeat to demoralise them—as is evident from 9/11 onwards and esp. in October 7’s wake, the more they perceive themselves as winning, the more it encourages them.
3. The Woke-Left are revealing themselves for what they actually are, and are disgusting ordinary people and their antics infuriating them. Ordinary people are finally seeing how corrupt our various institutions have become, and are shocked and angry. There are opportunities in that disgust and anger for at least some fightback against the Woke Left and our corrupted institutions; proclaiming neutrality will only allow those opportunities to be lost.